Here's a better idea:

Thank you for that video, I do believe I will show it to some who do not GET it. I think commercials and other means of "information" all treat us like infants, because quite frankly too many people act like they are. I want this, I want that and I don't care who has to suffer in order for me to get it! Everytime I take time to look around, I really wonder WTF is wrong with the majority of people. But maybe that is just the cynic in me :) .

The images on that farm, the way in which there was just row after row of confined calves in small enclosures is utterly depressing. They aren't even treated with the same respect that murderers and rapists get on death row. Considering this IS death row for them, that is the LEAST they should get.

Thanks Nikki :)

There is something about these images - mother and child longing for each other, regardless of species - that tugs on our "heart strings." For those who don't understand our abstention from dairy ought to be shown videos such as these because the actions displayed are indefensible. "Indefensible," that is, when coupled with an argument about the unnecessary nature of consuming milk.

The death row analogy is telling of our confused moral reasoning in this society isn't it? I've never made this argument but I will. Thanks!

Alex, do you have IBS? I do and you grossly simplify the illness by saying if we do not eat meat or dairy products it will 'go away'.

I do not cotton to how the industry deals with cows and their offspring. I do not eat veal because of the horrific things done to the animal.

But that said...beating the drum for veganism by way of attacking people who do eat meat or dairy products, as the cause of their IBS is a lousy tactic.

Thanks for the comment Dusty.

I wasn't attacking people with IBS Dusty, that's just strange. I was attacking the commercial for failing to address the consumption of meat and dairy as a primary cause of problems such as irregularity. Or are you disputing my claim that the consumption of meat and dairy is casually related? I make another claim in my post, again, not attacking people with IBS (how you inferred that still confounds me): these commercials treat us like infants because they present half-truths as a means to sell their products. Is this incorrect? Like a commercial where a cow is actually angry with someone for not eating him: such absurdities should be criticized. We don't need anymore gimmicks like this one Dusty. Eat more vegetables and fruit; avoid meat and dairy because they are not easily digested. Again, is this too simple and intuitive?

Onto your second point. If someone has a prejudice, which, by definition, is not rationally justifiable, in order to attack that faulty premise you necessarily need to have a discourse about the person's own beliefs. This may seem like a personal attack, but only because the prejudiced person has an emotional reaction when being challenged. Like you have when considering our collective prejudice against nonhumans (which is why we don't think their suffering ought to matter in our moral decision-making), the racist has a vested interest in not altering his/her thinking and behavior patterns. I doubt that you would consider a discourse like this with a sexist inappropriate. Or would you? How else do we challenge a man who believes a woman's interests shouldn't count? You only believe it to be poorly executed, if you will, because you are tied to this prejudice that prevails throughout our culture (and the world for the most part).

Quote:

"I do not eat veal because of the horrific things done to the animal."

I must ask, do you consume dairy? Please refer to our FAQ section, and the plentiful amount of other evidence on this topic, for the indisputable link between the dairy industry and veal production. Your outrage over veal production is absolutely warranted; however, you should demand reasoned actions that conform with your outrage. The single most important action you can take is to give up dairy for without the dairy industry there would not be a veal industry (in its current form).

Challenging our torture of baby cows verbally is a good step, but moving into the realm of action is ethically correct - and exceedingly easy. If you would like advice about how simple and delicious a diet free of dairy can be, I would be happy to help you out or direct you to excellent sources.

What are your thoughts Dusty?

Well said Alex. When I first read your posting, I did not read it as no dairy=no IBS. You CLEARLY stated that diary and meat are simply the PRIMARY cause, which in and of itself implies that there are other causes! Plus I don't find your mentioning of IBS and potential causes of it as a "tactic" against people, you're just laying out the facts. Some people just don't want to hear them. =) I for one don't see how eating meat and dairy COULDN'T impact someone who has sensitive intestines (aka IBS sufferers).

I have invited Dusty back to the conversation, but she has refused to do so. (It was clearly a "hit & run" job.) I appreciate your support though Nikki.

I have been out of town and without a computer.

Therefore I did not refuse to to anything, but go ahead and assume ok?

Whether I consume dairy products isn't the question for me on this thread. This part of your post is what bothered me:

This is far easier and smarter: STOP EATING GODDAMN FLESH AND MILK, which, of course, is the primary cause of these issues.--You assume we are ignorant and/or stupid because we consume dairy or meat products. The primary cause of IBS is not consuming meat or dairy products.

IBS will hit me regardless of what I consume. It's almost impossible to tell what is going to set it off, and in fact when its a really bad case of it...ANYTHING I eat will tear me up. The pain is debilitating and will sometimes keep me unable to function as a normal human being for days.

From a website devoted strictly to IBS:

There are several hundred potential causes of IBS, but most cases result from issues in the following two major categories:

Food Allergies and Intolerances
Problems with Intestinal Bacteria, Yeast/Candida, or Parasites

So I find it interesting that you, of all people, seem to know the secret to keeping IBS at bay within my body. amazing...

Thanks for the comment. You must understand my assumption about "trolls" so I won't address that.

The commercials for Activia, and the website itself, suggests that irregular bowls are the result of food products not easily digested. (As does a wealth of dietary evidence.) Therefore, Activia contains products (e.g., bacteria) to simplify the digestion of these products. My complaint, then, with the commercial still holds: Stop eating foods that are so difficult to digest.

I don't assume that you are ignorant because you eat dairy. In fact I specifically say that those in a position of "authority" (e.g., the producers of these commercials), real or imagined, are lying to us and thus keeping the truth - the underlying primary causes of these issues - from the public. Now, perhaps I'm not entirely correct on the statement of "primary cause," but your accusation that I'm attacking people with an irregular bowl, as opposed to my explicit attack on the commercial itself, is erroneous. (As Nikki argues; but she doesn't have a bias against the argument almost forcing her to become automatically defensive.)

The assumption on this matter, then, is on your behalf Dusty. As I said in my comment, attacking someone suffering of IBS is just strange. It's a red haring and you know it.

So let's agree that there are other causes for IBS and focus instead on irregular bowls. Am I wrong on this matter? Also, why do you refuse to consider the bulk of the argument here or your apparent contradiction on veal production? I wrote a post about this veal problem just because of your comment. Check it out. Thanks again!

Focus on what you said in print here Alex.:
This is far easier and smarter: STOP EATING GODDAMN FLESH AND MILK, which, of course, is the primary cause of these issues.-It isn't correct Alex.

Please..it was, at least it seemed to me, an emotional kneejerk reaction to a serious illness using the dairy/meat issue as the catalyst.

The Commercial is there to sell a product. Do you buy into everything all commercials propose? Probably not, but you go after 'this one' because as a Vegan you are anti-dairy and anti-meat.

As I said, plenty of things cause an attack for all of us that suffer from it. It's very hard to narrow it down, and since I am without insurance, seeing a doctor about it isn't an option at this point.

There is no contradiction regarding veal, how do you arrive at that? I was affected horribly as a child when I saw what they do to veal calves.

Quote:

"The Commercial is there to sell a product. Do you buy into everything all commercials propose?"

Well no, but as I was responding to the commercial, doesn't it follow that I would attack the assumptions being made in the commercial itself? As my post was explicit in its attack on the commercial, my "emotional kneejerk reaction" was a response to the message being portrayed. My response, then, was "Hey Activia, why don't you start telling the truth!" Thus my statements about meat and dairy.

Perhaps, as I admitted, I overstated what I believe to be the truth. But you certainly haven't shown that I am "attacking you for having IBS." That's the red haring. I don't know how to make that any clearer. So I'm moving beyond that.

Now onto veal: Read my post about veal Dusty, and if you still eat dairy, which, of course, is the assumption am making when I say that there exists a contradiction here, you will understand my argument. If I'm wrong, and you don't eat dairy, then there isn't a contradiction. If you don't see it my way, let's talk about. The post is called "Veal and Dairy: Let's Talk About It."

Alex, your original statement which I quoted in my comment above is grossly inaccurate. That is my main point in entering this discussion.

Going after the Ag industry is a noble and, in my pov, a needed discussion. Taking on the meat packing companies, the FDA, USDA and other governmental agencies are worthwhile and righteous endeavors as well. The government's recent decree that one meat packer who wanted to test all their cattle for bovine spongeform couldn't is utterly disgusting and indefensible to me.

Telling people that they can not or should not eat meat or dairy products puts everyone that partakes in those products on the defensive.

But going after the Ag producers who's methods of breeding, raising, housing, pumping them full of hormones and slaughtering meat, chicken and their offspring might go farther to bring people to your cause/issue instead of framing the issue as you currently do, which is- Meat/dairy consumers are part of the problem...if they didn't eat those products there wouldn't be a problem, nor would there be an outlet for the Ag producers products.

Humans have been eating meat since they lived in caves. Our bodies have evolved to allow this practice, for the most part. What our bodies can't handle are the hormones, the drugs and everything else that is pumped into cattle and chickens that are raised for food.

Seeing injustice and horror in many things of our lives is a given. Acting on these issues is another story all together. I rescue feral cats and kittens. I am quite active in my community with regard to dog and cat cruelty. These are issues I have taken to heart, just as you have regarding becoming a vegan and the treatment of farm animals.

But I would no more fault you for not being active regarding pet cruelty than I would curse anyone else that doesn't act on what I consider to be an important issue that isn't dealt with by state, local and federal governments. You can kill a dog and get no jail time, as recently witnessed by a police officer in San Diego who knowingly left his canine in the police car to die a horrible death for over two hours with temperatures in high 90's.

But thats my soapbox issue, not yours.

Have you considered my post about veal and dairy yet Dusty?

Quote:

"Humans have been eating meat since they lived in caves. Our bodies have evolved to allow this practice, for the most part."

Men have "evolved" to have a predisposition to violence in their sexual activity, as this method best secures the survival of their genes from one generation to another. Indeed, according to our evolutionary history, men have a predisposition to violence against many women for this end. The human species as a whole, in fact, could be argued to display keen evolutionary instincts that predispose us to violent acts.

However, we have also evolved the capacity to reason, which underlies what may be called "moral intuition." This capacity has, therefore, been employed to counter these "evolutionary" impulses. The question then is this: If we are capable of doing so, should we challenge "evolution" if the impetus is engendered by reason and our ethical judgment? There was a moment when the answer to this question, as it relates to rape, was "No." I would hope that we don't rest our moral judgments on a foundation of "We evolved to do it."

We do not need to consume these products to survive happy and healthily, as even conservative dietitians will attest too. Therefore, I think an ethical justification, as the unnecessary suffering involved is tremendous and the numbers involved are simply astonishing, is demanded if we are to take the moral point of view.

As far as your concern about our companion animals, I think you raise excellent points. When unfolded, in fact, I think they are applicable to my central concerns about forcing any nonhuman to suffer so terribly for such arbitrary and unnecessary reasons.

Ok, IBS is intrinsically linked to the meat and dairy industry in that the majority of IBS sufferers without another diagnosed syndrome have a history of food poisoning.

This was what happened to me. I got terrible e-coli from a contaminated salad (I got my iceberg lettuce without dressing, but someone chopped it on the same board they'd had red meat on). Ever since getting e-coli, and it really made me very ill, my digestive system has been extremely sensitive. Some people don't even know they got food poisoning--they think they got bad "stomach flu."

Admittedly many people will experience IBS symptoms from a low grade dairy allergy. Also for many IBS sufferers large amounts of fat set off attacks, so there is an issue with meat as well.

As you seem to imply fiber can often relieve IBS symptoms and animal products have no fiber and contribute to constipation.

That said, I think the ethical reasons as shown in your video are the most compelling ones.

Naturally though vegans can take vegan pro-biotics. Sure they aren't patented ones created by the dairy industry, but many people have used them with great success for years.

Thank you for the great information Neva. I always appreciate your input. I just hope that Dusty has the chance to read your comment.